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Posts Tagged ‘morality’

What I Believe for the 21st Century – Tauriq Moosa

Friday, July 10th, 2009

Along with Bertrand Russell, it is importance to consider what one believes rather than what one knows. Knowledge, the evanescent sphere that humans touch upon to ascend to higher planes of comprehension, is mostly unimportant: It is the beliefs that we hold. Indeed, modern philosophers like Roger Scruton regard epistemology not as the study of knowledge but the justification for our beliefs. In this short space, I am aim to succinctly outline my current beliefs with the goal of checking up on them in one year. I hope readers do not find this self-indulgent but rather a project of epistemic duty, to which each person should scrutinise for themselves. If there are alternate and better views, many current views should be rescinded or replaced.

I believe…


  • …nothing is sacred and the attempt at sanctification brings nothing but dogmatic human assertion onto an otherwise neutral world. This is not to be confused with not thinking certain thing highly important: for example, I do not believe in the “sanctity of human life” but I believe very strongly in fighting for people’s autonomy, freedom and their pursuit of happiness.
  • …many current governmental policies, even in “Western” liberal democracies, are premised on knee-jerk emotional responses which cater to the masses. We need a thorough reassessment based on evidence rather than emotion if we wish to help our fellow Man. Thus, our policies on drugs, capital punishment, education and the automatic respect for religions to dictate on important moral issues needs at the most rescinding and at the least thorough consideration.
  • …suppression only worsens rather than ameliorates most social problems. Thus, we should legalise drugs (from marijuana to cocaine), prostitution, pornography, abortion,  euthanasia and similarly related constituents of “immorality”. Conservative moralists tend to consider a slippery-slope that as AC Grayling put it works like this: “If you eat two bananas, you are going to want to eat a million.” We can already see the irrationality of such an approach. Firstly, if people want drugs, abortions and euthanasia, they will usually find a way to get it. Secondly, we already have arbitrary instances of various allowances of these prohibitions: we have legalised alcohol and nicotine (both of which are far worse than other drugs, like say marijuana); we don’t blink when we give a pet a good death (the literal meaning of euthanasia) but shudder when the gaze shifts to one of our own. This again goes back to considering something sacred, rather than looking at something humanely – that is, it is more important for someone to have life, even if it is filled with suffering, than to have no life and therefore no suffering. Also, those who chant the mantra “drugs are bad” should remember that for the most part, even alot of so-called hard drugs when taken in minimal circumstances do little to no damage.
  • …when entering the public sphere, all ideas are open to criticism, debate, mockery and scorn. If we eliminate the stupid notion of sanctity, we can allow that ideas are man-made and therefore fallible. The point is to weed out the bad and keep the good but that can not be done if certain ideas are beyond criticism. For too long we have lived under the shadow of a respect for people’s faiths but no longer must that be the case. We should care more about people and creating a better world, than hushing our own important criticisms which could better more lives by being spoken rather than placating dormant lives with silence.
  • …we should not be afraid to defend our point of views strongly, but more importantly we must be able to utter 2 three-word sentences: “I don’t know” and “I stand corrected”. Sure, we may feel like imbeciles when we vehemently defend a view which turns out to be wrong. We should then apologise and say so, rather than making the situation worse by deluding ourselves into naive dogmatism. Nobody really cares anyway because no one is keeping tabs on how often you were right. Also you will be right by acceding to your opponent or antagonist (even if there are say, your brilliant philosopher girlfriend), because you will be able to correct those who shared your previously held view.
  • …religions are a disgusting affront to human sensibilities and are perverse for accruing various properties. It is both tedious and mortifying to constantly read about religious groups opposing abortions, same-sex marriages, prostitution, drugs, freedom of speech and expression, liberty, and so on. In each case, we can probably name a few cases where religious people who deem their actions sanctified (there is that notion of sanctity again!) by a god have killed someone who is part of these movements. Religious people often refuse to face facts and evidence, as is the case with for example evolution and contraceptives, and instead point to arbitrary passages in their arbitrary (sacred) book.  Religions not only reward people for horrifying actions like the slaughter of innocent people, but also rewards people for believing without evidence. It also rewards people for peering into other people’s private lives which, if ignored, would not hinder their own lives at all (how could a happy homosexual couple going about their business make the lives of say a normal family horrid, unless they were Christians and told by their holy book that homosexuality is an affront to god?)
  • …the most disgusting affront to our species and the biggest fight we have is the continued emancipation of women and bringing their hands to tightly clutch the banner of liberty. Especially in such places as Africa, where we know that when women are allowed charge over their own bodies, we can end poverty. Poverty will not be solved solely though charity – we know that will not work. Instead, we must seek charity’s root, namely karitas or the love of fellow humans. This means liberating women which reduces poverty by not dealing out already low resources to an inestimable number of offspring, who themselves grow up to continue to breed and create more people to suffer needlessly. Aside from poverty, we need to push back the patriarchy of society to realise that women (who do better than the male counterparts in education) are human. Religions also aid this patriarchy by giving men a divine sanction to use their wives as nothing more than cattle. There are too many instances to name in Islamic countries that they might collectively be called Misogynia. By combating these arrogant and stupid men who think women are lower than themselves, we will be pulling the carpet from under the feet. The biggest wake up call that Muslims states could suffer would be a woman, wearing clothes of her choosing, smiling and enjoying her own mind and body. A respect for the minds and their bodies should be welcomed, not solely for the purpose of the male related urge to have sex, but also for the appreciation of the beauty of both. Personally, women are the better sex and it is often said that if god was a woman, the world wouldn’t be in such a mess – perhaps the only statement of an anthropomorphic god I could agree with.
  • …we need a re-evaluation of why we procreate. To the Greeks, everything was an ethical dilemma: even the clothes you wore. To them the ethical life was a life well-lived and living ethically was a life-long challenge. We tend to forget this view, with its importance on self-reflection. Applying this to all spheres would end a lot of social problems but it needs to be consistent. Thus, to be consistent, there has yet to be a good reason laid out for the procreation of  our species. As I write this, I am of the opinion that it is immoral to create new people, since it is by definition impossible to have a child for that child’s sake – because the child does not exist when you conceive him. Parents do not know their children for quite some time, so it is impossible to say that parents have children for that child’s sake. To have a child is simply a selfish act, a biological need (arguably the most prominent and therefore the most overlooked!). Why have kids? It is a bizarre question to most people, but as of yet there has not been a satisfactory answer. To continue the human species is not good enough either, since I do not care for those who do not exist. I care and apply my moral sphere to those who exist. Those who do not exist do not suffer. Also, we must remember that our species will die out eventually and we only prolonging the inevitable. It seems harsh and to some horrifying, but it is rather simple. For this reason, I at this moment will not have children. Instead, I think our efforts in helping people to procreate and the “sad” fact that people are sterile, needs shifting to aid children who are already alive. That is, instead of focusing on children who do not exist, focus on those who do! Perhaps this is what irks me the most – there are so many children who need loving families and I do not doubt that people who want kids simply want a child to love. Therefore, they should not add to our overpopulated word, but simply adopt. Psychological testing has shown time and time again, there is no difference in affection and love between children who parents adopt and children born to biological parents. I believe it a human duty to shift our silly polices on those “unlucky people who are sterile” and who can not create new people; and instead promote the humanity and importance of adopting people who already exist.
  • …reading is the gateway to living the good life and engaging in discussion with ideas its path. Epicurus was the embodiment of this, who thought the highest aim in life was sitting beneath a tree discussing philosophy. Whilst we can not reasonably expect such a life today, we can approach it with the same considerations. Reading is a joy and should be shown to young people when their minds are finding fruition and goal. Like education, reading should not be promoted by forcing children to read certain books, but how and why they should read in the first place. People find their hunger grow when reading and the acquisition of “knowledge” becomes a life long goal. There is nothing pretentious in reading Tolstoy and Faulkner’s books, indeed they are beautiful and actually simple writers. They are classics because even the general reader is able to enjoy its beauty, whilst stuffy introverts like myself could dissect it for in-depth literary criticism. There is also much joy to be gained in reading opposing viewpoints, thus reading books for and against evolution, for and against god, for and against postmodernism, and so on. We enjoy debates for their entertainment value and watching one side get overturned by the brilliance of the other; but we also allow people in better positions than ourselves to criticise more eloquently and with better information. It is a joy: try (really try) for example reading a work by Derrida (perhaps a short one) than try Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont’s Fashionable Nonsense or Ophelia Benson and Jeremy Stangroom’s Why Truth Matters.
  • …by studying philosophy, I hope to bring it further into the public sphere where it belongs. Much is to be gained from the history of ideas and discussion within philosophy. Not least the clarification and use of critical thinking so important to this discipline. Moral philosophers need to be higher placed within our society than say, bishops and rabbis – for the simple reason that moral philosophy is not moralising – i.e.: it is not about setting out a list of “Thou shalt…” and “Thou shalt not…” but the clearing of verbose emotional reactions and alternate paths not previously considered. The first person journalists should contact when an ethical dilemma arises from medical advancement should not be the public or a religious don: it should be a bioethicist. After outlining all the paths and conjectures surrounding the topic, others can contribute more coherently. This should be the job of the philosopher in general, to clear the path for discussion to continue maturely.
  • …sex is overrated. In nearly every sense, sex finds itself at the top of the list for both those who consider themselves godless liberals in their “FOR” list, and for the conservative moralisers in their “AGAINST” list. If sex was less the topic of focus, it could be allowed to be the healthy, enjoyable actualisation of affection two (or three or four) people have for each other.
  • …I am not intelligent or bright. I reserve such terms for those who deserve it and find it a particularly insulting when an important property finds itself attached to me. As an example, I did terribly in high-school, barely passing. I did even worse in a tertiary institution, only managing firsts in English literature – a degree, nearly anyone could do well in. I am not exceptional in any way, save that I am particularly good-looking.
  • …that last sentence was a lie.

I hope that by next year one of these would have changed, either to be replaced with something more informed, or elucidated more clearly. For example, I hope to be able to say that I am working from a tertiary institution. Until then, let us see what changes the world makes upon itself.

More data is needed to confirm Bloom’s hypothesis about why American atheists are so mean

Friday, November 7th, 2008

Paul Bloom, an extraordinarily erudite cognitive scientist and Professor of Psychology at Yale, has just published a piece on Slate defending atheists against data suggesting that (American) secular types are less “nice” and less charitable than their religious counterparts. After giving a rough sketch of data suggesting that people who are psychologically primed to think they are being watched at all times (in this case, by God) are more likely to be charitable (alternatively, I read this as religious people are easier to coerce…) and that atheists give less blood and less money to charity, Bloom explains:

Humans are social beings, and we are happier, and better, when connected to others…. The Danes and the Swedes, despite being godless, have strong communities. American atheists, by contrast, are often left out of community life. The studies that Brooks cites in Gross National Happiness, which find that the religious are happier and more generous then the secular, do not define religious and secular in terms of belief. They define it in terms of religious attendance. It is not hard to see how being left out of one of the dominant modes of American togetherness can have a corrosive effect on morality. As P.Z. Myers, the biologist and prominent atheist, puts it, “[S]cattered individuals who are excluded from communities do not receive the benefits of community, nor do they feel willing to contribute to the communities that exclude them.”

This is an explanation that is intuitively quite satisfying, and one with a great deal of emotional appeal to secularists who are being tired that their bitter despondence towards life is because they have no God (or vice versa). Mr. Bloom, who by eerie coincidence I just happen to have met in person literally minutes before reading the Slate article, considers himself to be a mind-body materialist (he didn’t say if he was an atheist or not, but he does say that he has never held any strong religious views despite being raised Conservative Jewish) and so we must be wary of the potential emotional appeal his hypothesis both to ourselves and to the hypothesizer.

This piece has already been circulated on Pharyngula, but at this stage Bloom’s work is still preliminary. His hypothesis is good, however, in that it makes testable predictions; there are certain things we should expect if Bloom’s hypothesis is true:

  1. Any social group that is discriminated against routinely ought to have lower rates of charitable giving, blood donation, or other measures of “niceness.”
  2. Any majority social group that enjoys any kind of de facto or de jure privilege in a society ought to have higher rates of those same measures than the discriminated minority.
  3. Groups that become more tolerated over time ought to, ceteris peribus, have increased rates of charitable “niceness.”

I do not have any of the data on those three predictions, if indeed such data exists. I invite anyone who is both interested and knowledgeable in this line of reasoning, please drop a link to some relevant research in the comments page to see if we can confirm Mr. Bloom’s promising, and optimistic, hypothesis.

Can a moral theory succeed in modifying human behavior?

Monday, October 20th, 2008

One of the most profound accomplishments of the Enlightenment is the idea that a ethics from the ground up can succeed in establishing robust moral principles without the necessary intervention of any kind of objective moral lawgiver giving us ethics from the top down. In a recent essay for philosophical academia, I argued that even if a moral theory that successfully provides a sound, internally coherent, rigorous map of how humans ought to behave could be derived from unchallengeable premises, such a theory could not in principle be successful in modifying human behavior.

I felt this for a number of reasons, some scientific and some abstract. Because I know that Edger’s audience consists mostly in freakin’ brilliant navigators of the human condition of all stripes, I have decided to here briefly summarize and expand my argument into three primary points for your consideration. I can think of no finer peer review process than letting Edger’s readers be the first to examine, discuss, and hopefully dissect my argument.

It seems implicit in the act of moral theory-making that the moral philosopher wants to present some system for advising rational moral actors in how to respond to problems. Even if only a slim minority of people know what “utilitarianism” means, the utilitarian moral philosopher still has at least some interest in having other real people maximize goods and minimize harms. It is in this respect that I think no moral theory can succeed.

First, let me define a what I mean by a “moral theory:” a moral theory is any behavioral heuristic that compels one to respond to moral dilemmas by evaluating the morally salient features of those dilemmas. For example: “I want to maximize goodness while minimizing harmfulness” is probably the most intuitive moral theory ever devised. It meets my definition of a moral theory because, given a moral problem, the theory asks you to look at morally salient features of the problem (the “goodness” and the “harmfulness” of your choices) and to make a decision. By contrast, “flip a coin” is not a moral theory, even if it is a heuristic for solving moral dilemmas. Flipping a coin is completely irrelevant to the moral right or wrong of a particular choice, and so even if it could guide your behavior, it would not meet my definition of a moral theory. My definition of a moral theory is not, I think, controversial.

That really is the only definition you need (as a philosophy student, I know that 95% of philosophy is a morbid obsession with definitions, so I’m glad that my argument only needs one!) for my argument to proceed. Here, then, are two good reasons for why no moral theory can succeed in modifying human behavior:

1. The morally salient features of moral dilemmas are often less important than morally inert factors in deciding how people respond to those dilemmas.

Ok, so what do I mean by this? Basically I mean that, even if people think that they are responding to a moral dilemma by evaluating right and wrong, this is often an illusion. Instead, people are often mislead by completely morally irrelevant devices such as framing effects. A framing effect is any effect on your responses to a problem caused by something like how a problem is phrased or presented. Walter Sinnott-Armstrong’s fantastic Framing Moral Intuitions from his 2008 compendium Moral Psychology vol.2 (there are three volumes) discusses a number of these effects.

Sinnott-Armstrong cites a 1981 study by Tversky and Kahneman in which subjects were asked to choose between two risky treatment plans for an imaginary impending disease outbreak. For half of the subjects, one of the imaginary treatment plans will definitely save exactly one third of those infected. The other treatment plan has a 1 in 3 chance of saving everyone and a 2 in 3 chance of saving no one.

For the other half of the subjects, one of the imaginary treatment plans will definitely kill exactly two-thirds of those infected and the other treatment plan has a 1 in 3 chance that nobody will die and a 2 in 3 chance that everyone will die.

It should be obvious that, objectively speaking, both groups had the same exact plans. However, the unconscious influence of the “save” vs. “kill” in this study produced a dramatic effect: 72% percent of people chose the safer treatment in the first instance, but only 22% chose the safer treatment in the second instance. This is an obvious example of a morally irrelevant feature of a problem actually influencing peoples’ decisions: a rational moral theory would target the morally salient features of these dilemmas (who lives and who dies), but as we see here, the rightness or wrongness of an answer was completely overwhelmed by the morally irrelevant question of how the experimenters worded the problem.

Another study by Petrinovich and O’Neill found that, not only can framing effects take place within problems, they can even take place between problems. In a 1996 study, they presented four different groups of subjects with the same three dilemmas, only they offered them in a different order for each group of subjects. Some groups started off with a dilemma whose most beneficial choice involved action, others a dilemma whose most beneficial choice involved inaction. In short, the researchers found that the order in which certain problems were presented had a statistically significant impact on peoples’ answers to those questions. Again, this is an example where a trivial fact of presentation actually overrode a neutral sample’s moral judgments.

The final example I’ll offer (but by no means the final example in the literature; further data can be provided on request) comes from a 2007 study performed by four behavioral psychologists that tried to look at factors completely outside the scope of moral dilemmas. This study, by Schnall, Haidt, Clore, and Jordan, had two groups of subjects sit at a desk and give answers to written moral dilemmas. For one group, the desks were neat and tidy. For another group, the desks were filthy, with a trashcan full of old wrappers and food within sight nearby. Those seated at the filthy desks delivered far harsher moral judgments than those seated at the clean desk. The point here is clear: completely irrelevant trivialities have the power to override moral judgments in truly profound ways.

Why this is a problem for a successful moral theory is obvious: if the morally salient features of dilemmas are less relevant than irrelevancies to moral decision-making, then a moral theory is completely barking up the wrong tree in terms of guiding behavior.

2. Fast and frugal amoral heuristics can override strong moral judgments.

One possible objection to my first area of argumentation would be that “well, maybe these guys got a bit confused by the wording of some problems, but there are obviously some real-life moral problems that you just can’t mess up with a framing effect.”

Suppose I told you that a completely amoral wrinkle in a situation can lead 500 good, liberal men to murder over a thousand Jews.

Gerd Gigerenzer’s 2008 essay Moral Intuition = Fast and Frugal Heuristics?: quotes Christopher Browning’s 1993 Ordinary Men in telling a story about 500 German men, from the liberal middle-class of generally Nazi-hostile Hamburg, who carried out an order to round up and massacre more than a thousand innocent, unarmed civilians from an undefended civilian area.

The commanding officer received the order, and he assembled his men. He told them the orders, but then said that anyone who wanted to opt out of the mission could do so without punishment. Fewer than 3% of them opted out. The rest carried out their orders, despite having graphic, physical reactions of anguish and horror all the while. These men were not evil. Most of them probably knew what they were doing was wrong. So why did they do it?

They did it because of a fast, frugal, completely amoral behavioral heuristic: Don’t break ranks. Gigerenzner goes on to provide a wealth of data defending the existence of this heuristic. Another heuristic that is massively substantiated by the data: if there is a default, do nothing about it. The example here is organ donation: America’s organ donation apparatus has the default position being that one is not an organ donor, France’s organ donation apparatus has the default position being that one is an organ donor. Even though high numbers of Americans report endorsing organ donation, only 28% opt in. In France, where a roughly equal number of people endorse organ donation, only 1% opts out. Where the default is, so goes the majority.

Notice that neither of these heuristics has anything to do with morality. Whether or not all your friends are doing it (”don’t break ranks”) has literally no bearing whatsoever on the goodness of that action, and yet as we have seen, it is a far keener influence on human behavior than on any moral theory (nearly all of which would probably describe murdering innocent civilians just for being Jewish as being morally prohibited). The “go with the default” heuristic is the same story. Any utilitarian moral story will tell you that, on the balance, you should probably be an organ donor. And yet only 28% of people opt into the system. But, all of the best evidence demonstrates that “it is the default rule rather than alleged preferences that explains most people’s behavior” (Gigerenzer 2008).

This is another clear problem for moral theory-making: if even morally unthinkable scenarios can be occluded by completely amoral confounding factors, such as whether or not all of your friends are doing it too, then is anything sacred?

Formalization:

(1) If heuristic x is a moral theory, then x should be expected to provide guidance for moral behavior.
(1a) If heuristic x is a moral theory that should be expected to provide guidance for moral behavior, then x does so based on the morally salient features of problems.
(2) If x should be expected to provide guidance for moral behavior based on the morally salient features of problems, then x will not be able to provide responses to moral dilemmas because morally inert factors of these problems (like framing effects) have a greater on moral decision-making than the morally salient features of those problems.
(3) If x does not affect responses to moral problems because of morally inert factors of these problems, then it is not the case that x can be expected to provide guidance for moral behavior.
Therefore: If heuristic x is a moral theory, then x cannot be expected to provide guidance for moral behavior (HS 1-3).

Premises (1), (1a), and (3) all derive from the definition of a moral theory I have provided. Only definition (2) actually needs defending. I hope that the evidence I have provided from the literature (a bounty of additional evidence is available on request) sufficiently justifies this step of the argument.

It should be noted that this argument is not precisely moral nihilism (the philosophical position that no moral truths actually exist). In fact, my argument works completely independent of whether or not moral truths exist or can be tracked. All that matters is that any moral theory is irrelevant to behavior in the sense that moral theories target moral features of problems, but these features are less important than amoral heuristics and framing effects, even in dramatic cases.

Once doubt has been cast on a few moral judgments, doubt is cast on them all. Walter Sinnott-Armstrong provides the wonderful example of a bathtub with some thermometers. Suppose you are trying to determine the temperature of the water in a bathtub, which for some reason you can’t touch. All you have is a box full of thermometers. Unfortunately, all you know is that some number of the thermometers is off, and you don’t know by how much. What is the temperature of the water? You can’t know.

Moral decision-making by appeal to a moral theory works the same way. If the bathtub is a moral judgment, and the thermometers are your moral heuristics, you will find that you could never know whether or not your judgment is being occluded by a framing effect, or some other completely morally inert triviality that has nothing to do with right or wrong but which still has a strong effect on your moral decision-making. Not only do you not know which judgments are being occluded, you don’t know how many are altered by amoral trivialities.

And that is the crux of the problem: you don’t even know when your moral theory is broken. You have no way of knowing if your deployment of a moral theory is broken, or when it is working, because you cannot possibly know whether or not you are making a genuine moral judgment or whether you are simply giving a predictable unconscious response to a morally irrelevant framing effect or other morally inert confounding factor.

On light and morality

Monday, August 18th, 2008

(Original Post)

The argument comes up far too often.

Morality requires an absolute reference point.  Without God there can be no morals.

But it occured to me today that this parrots an argument made just over a hundred years ago in physics:

Light is a wave and therefore requires a medium to propagate.  Without the aether in interstellar space, there can be no light.

A bit of a background:

Light was postulated by Issac Newton to be particles that flew like tennis balls through the air.  This dominated until the single and double slit experiment showed the existence of diffraction, which could only be explained by a wave theory.  So after James Clerk Maxwell postulated his famous equations, the world decided upon a wave theory of light.

However, waves require something to move in. Just like waves in the ocean require water, waves of light should require something (be it air or glass) to move in.  But there wasn’t anything in space (as far as people could tell).  So how did the light from the sun get to Earth?

This led physicists to postulate an everpresent aether which filled the entire void of space.  This aether would allow the waves to get from the sun to Earth.

However, this aether should cause the speed of light to be different between a beam propagating with the Earth’s rotation versus a beam propagating perpendicular to the rotation.  This should happen because as the Earth goes around the sun it will “drag” some aether with it, this dragged aether will slow light down that’s going into it, but speed it up if it’s going with it (imagine light getting a tail or head wind), but going North-South the light shouldn’t really experience any net difference.  So when they performed very precise experiments to detect the aether, they found nothing!

The solution didn’t come until 1905 when Einstein was studying the photoelectric effect – basically a current is created when a light of a minimum energy is incident on a material.  Einstein postulated that light existed in photons (discrete particles), which solved the aether crisis and won him the Nobel prize (this was more practical than Special Relativity, which he also discovered in the same year, as well as the cause of Brownian Motion).

So what does this have to do with theological arguments about morality?

Basically, my analogy is that people couldn’t understand how light could propagate the void of space without an aether, in much the same way that people can’t understand how morality can exist independant of an absolute objective standard.

It took arguable one of the most brilliant people of the past century to solve the issue of light in space, negating the need for an aether, however, it is arguablly more accessible to understand how morality can arise naturally.

For more on naturalistic ethics, see some of my older posts:

Religion not required for morality

Saturday, August 9th, 2008

Evolutionary psychology has made further advances at demonstrating that morality requires no supernatural agent. Writes one Christian journalist:

Recent research suggests that we have been wrong, that morality can emerge and persist without religion. Evidence now points to the conclusion that early humans and prehumans were, long before religion started, predisposed to practice empathy, fairness and loyalty. In fact, these qualities are commonly found in bands of chimpanzees, and the normal behavior of very young children also reflects these attributes.

Evolutionary psychologists propose that natural selection resulted in brains that instinctually encouraged Australopithecines and other early hominids to be concerned about the welfare of others in their group, to share resources and information with them and to be loyal members of that band.