Yesterday, a Minnesota “prosperity gospel” preacher, whose theology is based upon the un-Biblical precept that God wants his followers to be economically successful, stated that an intensive IRS probe of his church’s income and expenses is “politically motivated.”
Reverend Mac Hammond told the Christian Post that “enemies of the gospel” are behind the inquiry. Though Hammond could not be reached by email by this author for comment, he appears to maintain that the IRS probe into his church’s income is based on purely material or political gain rather than on an authentic, principled desire to enforce IRS tax regulations that are suspicious of any religious entity’s gaining for itself a particularly strong annual income from donations and investments.
This IRS probe comes in the wake of (Republican) Senator Chuck Grassley’s battle to ensure that six profitable megachurches adhere to IRS regulations of non-profit, non-political entities amassing great wealth adhere IRS religious-based tax exemptions.
Reverend Hammond did not provide any details about whose political ends are being served, or what possibly political gain other than principled enforcement efforts of existing regulations are provided by the investigation of successful American megachurches for their lavish economic gains.
Megachurches, which comprise a relatively small (but growing) percentage of mostly Protestant congregations, typically draw thousands of worshipers from across their host states to single, highly profitable locations, often providing strong economic gains for popular pastors. Among Senator Grassley’s targets is the infamous megachurch reverend Creflo Dollar, whose personal benefits for presiding over a large (apparently unaffiliated Protestant) congregation include at least two private Rolls-Royce automobile for Dollar’s personal use as well as numerous other kickbacks.
The principle of separation of church and state, which dates back to the time of Jefferson, requires that local and federal government officials be wary of any religious organization that unnecessarily abuses its tax-exempt status for the purpose of personal gain by clergymen. No fault has yet been found in the enforcement of such regulations other than personal offense by the wealthy religious pulpit-men who have profited the most from exploitation of IRS tax exemption.
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How do you know Sen. Grassley wants to attack people? Did Jesus tell you or do you have real proof?
Same question for you: How do you know they are being attacked? What were the requests Sen. Grassley made of them?
What persecution is going on?
Who is persecuting any church?
July 15, 2008
NEWS RELEASE
Media Contact:
Lawrence Swicegood
lswicegood@kcm.org
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Kenneth Copeland Ministries/Eagle Mountain International Church Responds to Senator Grassley
Church has acted in good faith to cooperate, position has not changed
Eagle Mountain International Church/Kenneth Copeland Ministries (the “Church”) has reviewed Senator Grassley’s July 7, 2008, “Memorandum to Reporters and Editors” on the status of the responses and level of cooperation received from the six church ministries who are the subject of the Senator’s investigation that began in November 2007.
The Church’s position continues to be that it has responded to the request of Senator Grassley in good faith and to the greatest extent possible without compromising the privacy, confidentiality, and freedom of association rights and protections afforded to the Church by the United States Constitution and the Internal Revenue Code (the “Code”).
As stated in the Church’s letters of December 6, 2007, and March 31, 2008, to Senators Grassley and Baucus, and in discussions with Committee staff members, the Church continues to believe that the most timely and efficient way for the Committee to obtain the requested confidential information — without compromising the universally recognized fundamental constitutional and statutorily based rights of this Church and all religious institutions — is for the IRS to request and obtain the information through a “church tax inquiry” under section 7611 of the Code. At the completion of the 90-day inquiry period provided by section 7611 of the Code, the IRS would have in its possession and available for disclosure to Senator Grassley all of the confidential information, including financial data, Senator Grassley is seeking from the Church.
Through this well-established statutory process, Senator Grassley and his staff could then obtain all of the information they seek through a request made under section 6103 of the Code, which would provide the Church with the confidentiality protections to which it is entitled. Had the Senator pursued this course suggested by the Church back in December, he would have the information he is seeking available to him at this time. The Senator’s suggestion that the Church or its attorneys are being uncooperative or seeking to prolong the process is simply untrue.
Indeed, in an effort to expedite the process, in April the Church took the unprecedented step of pledging its cooperation to the IRS should the IRS undertake a church tax inquiry of the Church. Church and KCM CEO John Copeland said in a statement following his delivery of the letter to IRS offices in Dallas: “We told the IRS that we welcome them to come and make inquiry of us and we will provide answers to the IRS regarding questions that Senator Grassley has. The Church desires to protect its and all other churches’ First Amendment rights, and by this action, we believe we are doing just that.”
The Church respects the oversight role of the Senate Finance Committee and specifically the many efforts of Senator Grassley to provide oversight of tax-exempt organizations. Indeed, the Church has voluntarily adopted and adheres to policies and procedures that the Senator has publicly suggested over the years are appropriate governance practices for tax-exempt organizations.
However, the Church respectfully disagrees with Senator Grassley’s position that churches are no different from any other tax-exempt organization. Any government inquiry into the affairs of a church raises serious constitutional issues that must be carefully balanced against the government’s need to evaluate the effectiveness of the laws of the land. To ensure its constitutional rights are not unnecessarily infringed upon, the Church firmly believes that it must be given the protections from disclosure afforded by the federal tax laws and the benefit of the processes and procedures that apply to inquires of churches made by the IRS. Without such confidentiality and due process of law, the potential exists for the information to be used in an effort to damage or attempt to embarrass the Church, its pastors, and its members. Any such use of the information provided interferes with, and ultimately threatens, the religious liberties of this Church, the thousands of other Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches who preach the “Word of Faith” message, and all other churches — irrespective of their particular doctrine or faith.
tooserve,
This is the closest thing I’ve seen to a rational post in this entire discussion. It is, of course, merely the opinion of Mr. Swicegood of KCM, but at least it has citations to actual events and relevant law. I wish Chris Ray had bothered to do a little more research such as this.
So the ball is in your court, Chris. If you believe Sen. Grassley has the legal right to pursue further inquiries of the churches and if he has or has not exhausted the procedures referred to in the press release above, please let us know.
Otherwise, this whole thing is just a big pissing contest between you, acting as an atheist wingnut, and a bunch of Xtian wingnuts.
Talk about boring!
I would encourage you to get before God and PRAY about what God has called you to do. No you did not say that pastors like Creflo Dollar does not give but you used scripture (out of context mind you) that implied that these pastors don’t give to the poor. You obviously have no relationship with the Lord God because if you did you would know that God has answer prayer. I will let you find the scriptures since you have so much time to criticize people. You have taken scripture out of context I doubt that you really understand the word of God. I am going to pray and ask the Lord to send labors across your path to minister the word of God to you. Also, I am going to pray that the Lord move upon your heart to open your spirit to His word. After all, the Lord God sent His only begotten Son that you should have everlasting life (John 3:16). It is the Lords hope that none of those He has created will turn to eternal damnation. So with that I am no longer going to respond to your comments because your issues with the Lord are spiritual. The way I deal with spiritual warfare to take authority of the situation and pray. It is my hope that your heart is open to all that God has for you.
In the Scriptures that you reference here, Jesus was not dealing with the issue of having money, He was dealing with the LOVE of Money. It is the LOVE of money that is the root to all evil, not the money. You can be Rich or Broke and have a Love of money either way. Your lack of understanding of these scriptures and your extreme concern about the Money clearly shows that you suffer with a Love of money and that you need to apply these very scriptures to your own life. Why did the Soldiers that mocked Jesus gamble for His clothes? It certainly wasnt because of who they thought He was, it was because they were worth a lot of MONEY! When Jesus said, Feed them, referring to 5000 people, why did the disciples say – do you really want us to go and spend that much on them?- because He Had the MONEY! You need to set your Religion aside and actually read your Bible, all of it, without your denominational quarterly in your other hand.
un-Biblical precept? Do you know of any Economically UN-successful people that Pay for OR “Go into ALL the World and Preach the Gospel?” Your Religion is blinding you to common sense. If Senator Grassleys effort is to ensure that these Six organizations – that all adhere to the same basic teachings, why isnt Charles Stanley included, or any other main line denominational “Mega” churches? – Are adhering to IRS Regs, Then…why ISNT he using the IRS to get the info that he needs the legal way? These Six are not reported as being investigated by the IRS the legal and private way. This IS clearly religious persecution by someone in a position of power with the State, using the power of the State in blatant violation of EXACTLY what the Separation of Church and State is supposed to prevent. The PRINCIPLE and INTENT of Separation of Church and State was and is, to Prevent the State from doing what the kings of England did by forcing and enforcing the Religious teachings of THEIR choice on everyone else, and prevent the State from using its power and influence to persecute any one teaching. Any casual reading of the lives and documents of the Founding Fathers clearly shows their Faith and Belief in the Judeo-Christian God and yet this Separation clause protects even those Religions that are diametrically opposed to the God that they believed in.
It’s been interesting to follow the thread of the discussion on this article since August 30th.
I would like to share some thoughts on the subject. First, Sen. Grassley did not go through the IRS for this investigation. One of the contentions of the Copeland Ministry is that the IRS is the proper forum for such a request to be made. In fact, in April the Ministry requested that the IRS do an audit. Rather than go through the IRS, Sen. Grassley sent letters directly to the six ministries. He also announced his inquiry to the press before any of the ministries received his letter.
Also, Sen. Grassley has identified six ministries that share the same doctrinal principles, principles that his own denomination opposes. He did not seek information from other large ministries or churches such as Robert Schuller, Billy Graham, or Rick Warren.
Constitutional issues have been raised by Sen. Grassley’s action including separation of church and state and the right to privacy. Even more chilling is the idea that if this goes forward, who will be next on his or any other politician’s agenda? Will success here give incentive for further investigations into people or organizations politicians don’t like or agree with?
These ministries do preach a message of prosperity as part of their overall teaching in the power of faith in the Word of God to not only prosper but to heal and deliver as well. There are many testimonies of how these ministries have positively changed the lives of people.
I have followed some of these ministries for many years. I have seen them in action. I have seen how they give financially to others, how they reach out to those in prison, to the poor, to those facing natural disasters to offer real physical assistance and hope. I have seen them operate with integrity, honesty and genuine love and concern for others.
It’s not that they have something to hide. Copeland Ministries and others are taking a stand on their rights and requesting that the inquiry follow established procedures, procedures that Sen. Grassley himself helped right into law. In protecting their rights they are also protecting the rights of their supporters to give to whom they want without fear of government oversight or intrusion. I think it’s called freedom of religion and freedom to associate.
Who is your comment directed to?
Chris Ray, you seem totally oblivious to the law, and the rights of not only ministries, but even political libraries to privacy, mainly for the donors. If I give to a ministry, I have the right not to have that that information published.
The good senator has repeatedly stated that he does not want the information through the IRS, as he would not be able to publish it. Why would he want to publish this information, except to harm the ministries? Senator Grassley is out to harm, NOT TO SIMPLY UNMASK ANY ILLEGALITY.
As to the legality of this request, the senator himself wrote the rules he is now violating! The protection is not just for the pastors, but more especially for the donors, whose names he has demanded, and even the amounts given.
If you are only interested in the destruction of these ministries, why hid behind the mask of Christianity, and pretend to believe the Bible at all, since you so often display such ignorance of its life and truth?
The Bible is the actual word of God. Jesus even is decribed as the Word made flesh. It is not contradictory, except to those who refuse the light of the Holy Spirit to reveal what He said.
Why not ask God to reveal what He wants you to understand from what you read. It is NOT a text book, it is the book of life and light. I promise you, you will have a truly enjoyable experience if you are sincerly interested in the truth and will honestly pray for the Holy Spirits enlightenment.
First, the investigation NEVER was through the IRS! It was the senator only. And he has no subpoena powers, unless he has evidence of a wrong doing, and has the full permission of the government to do so. What he is doing is simply trying to use his power in a manner his own words, put to laws, does not permit!
“The good senator has repeatedly stated that he does not want the information through the IRS, as he would not be able to publish it. Why would he want to publish this information, except to harm the ministries? Senator Grassley is out to harm, NOT TO SIMPLY UNMASK ANY ILLEGALITY.”
John, do you have any evidence for this claim? Y’know, like a copy of a memo,or an interview?
Those who do not know God’s Word about finances are caught up in a stereotype of ministers and the church. That stereotype is one of poverty and barely getting along. My God has streets made of gold and as His child (those who have accepted Jesus according to the bible) he is wants us to have the same. What glory does God receive from a poor, broken down church where the minister has barely enough to take care of his family. Those of you who are so critical are able to do with your paycheck whatever you want to do. You go on vacations, give it to whom ever you want, send your kids to college and whatever else you want to do with it. You don’t seem to care that someone who’s only claim to fame is to hit a tiny ball into a hole, or throw a big bouncy ball into a basket makes millions and millions of dollars and profit NOBODY BUT THEMSELVES The other thing is that the critics seem to think that the mass millions of people who give money to their churches are somehow being DUPED into it!! My words to the critics – MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS BECAUSE THOSE OF US WHO SUPPORT THE MINISTRIES OF OUR CHOICE ARE DOING WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH OUR MONEY! And if Senator Grassley wants information, let him go to the IRS who would be down on these ministries in a flash if there were any improprieties!! The IRS is NOT friendly to ministries or anybody else.
Whether you think God wants His people to prosper, or the scriptures quoted above imply we should be poor.
It is not the job of the state or of anyone else to dictate to any church what they should believe. If that becomes the issue then this is already a losing battle. There are thousands of churches all over this free country and if we start dictating what we are allowed to believe we will be no different than communist regimes where the only churches that aren’t illegal are run by these communist states. This is an issue of religious freedom that has the potential to affect every religious organization formed in this country.
Oh you don’t know?. The word of faith churches are under extreme persecution based on their
doctrine.
Here is a couple of reads
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/people-in-grassley-houses-shouldnt-throw-stones/
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/copelands-crime-he-trusts-his-family/
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/kenneth-copelands-jet/
Thanks
Hello Spike,
On purely intellectual basis the fundermental issue is not whether Grassley has constitutional rights
to do what he is doing. Sure he does but to target some churches and leave others is
unconstitutional. He owes us as citizens factual explantion of what criteria he used to come up with
the list.
On religious grounds having a private jet and family members on staff is not a violation of church
doctrine and you may not understand that aspect based on your intellectual capability.
Leon,
Grassley may have the right under the USC as a private citizen to ask for the information, but my question is to whether or not his request falls within his role as a Senator. I agree that -IF- the Senator is focussing on some churches while ignoring others, then he does,in fact, owe an explanation as to what criteria he used to come up with the list. Because, the citeria he used would help determine if his request was inside or outside the law, including the USC.
Leon,
Please apply your evidently superior intellectual capability and show me where in this thread I said that having a private jet and family members on staff is a violation of church doctrine.
The only time I mentioned doctrine was to point out that the sect of Xtianity I used to be part of did not conisder having wealth to be unbiblical. With all due respect, if you are going to make claims about my intellectual capability, at least back up your claims with citations to things I actually wrote.
Why do you think that Jesus required that of him?”
Who are we to know the mind of God, right?
“Do you believe that Jesus requires that of us also and why?”
No, because Jesus is dead. That of course is on the assumption that he ever had a strict ontological existence in the first place.
This is written by Chris Ray who is obviously a Pagan so why would you debate the Bible with him. No Holy Spirit=No Understanding of the word. Even satan knows the scriptures so talking to this man is pointless. Furthermore if you want to be poor FINE. I have been there and it sucks. I serve an awesome God that provides for me to be rich and having been poor I know why it is the curse. I dont know why people think only the christians should give away everything we own and have nothing nice. The pagans always want to throw out scripture when it means we should be weak. You always hear “those christians arent they suppose to turn the other cheek”. Ah but then there is righteous anger. Read the bible- time and time again God protects and provides for his people. Why dont the people that are so interested in money go ask Hollywood why they make millions of dollars off polluting the minds and souls of people and live rich lifestyles flaunting there sin. There is so much money in Hollywood if they lived off a couple hundred thousand a year and gave away there millions this country would be awesome, Oh wait we would never dream of expecting that from the pagans-I mean actors and actresses!
“Obscenely Wealthy”? Is Bill Gates “Obscenely Wealthy”? Or does this distinction only apply to those in the Judeo-Christian fatih? Doesnt the Bible say that we are included in the Covenant of Abraham because of the price that Jesus paid for us? Yes, it does. In Galatians chapter 3. What did that Covenant get Abraham? It got him so “Obscenely Wealthy” that Kings were intimidated by hiim. Kings…intimated by a traveling nomad. Have you ever read the 28th Chapter of the book of Deuteronomy that details what Believers in the God of Abraham and His Covenant are entitled to? Apparently not. Since you are so concerned about how MUCH Money organizations like these are acquiring and hoarding up maybe you should do some research into ALL of them? How much money do you think the Vatican has, or even just the Diocese in the USA? What about the Baptist HQ, how much are they handling every year? Or the Assemblies of God? Or the Methodists, Episcopalians, or on and on…? Is it really about the MONEY and the IRS regs and the attendees of these MEGA churches that you appear to be so concerned about, or is it actually he teaching that is being presented that is clearly working…Just like the Bible says it is supposed to when you understand it. Jesus plainly said…when you are faithful with the little that belongs to another man…you will then be trusted with much. Maybe just maybe, you should be more objective about your analysis lest you find yourself battling Against the God of the Covenant Abraham that made Abraham so “Obscenely Wealthy”.
Spike,
I was simply implying that the “core” basis for the inquiry as reported by the press is that these ministries do indeed have private jets and have family members on their staff payroll. I did not expressly mean that it was contained in your tread. I apologize for that misconception but I was following your questions
and comments and thought you knew the foundation for the inquiry.
Thanks
Spike, I would love to get a copy of same, but unlike Grassley, the ministries are not releasing them, but have reffered to them. Why not comment on the fact that if the good senator is working with the IRS, he has not stated so at any time, nor has he been willing to request the information, which both Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar’s ministries have submitted to same? All questions have been answered, and all information has been submitted, but in accordance with the laws of the land, which both ministries have been more than willing to submit to. If others have submitted the answers directly to the senator, I for one will reconcider any further giving to same, as that action is working to pull down the wall of seperation of church and state. That law, in governing the IRS and its power, was written by the good senator, and when he did so, it was stated by him that the law was written to protect churches and prevent womeone in power from using that power to attach a church they personally did not agree with. What is this action, but the arm of government seeking to attack churches that he does not agree with?
John
So should you, Right? Just because they ask, right? So should NBC, right? CBS, Foxnews, Bill Gates, Wal-Mart, Home Depot, do you think any of these should just fax over the relevant documents just because they are asked? No, there are Right to Privacy Laws in THIS Country, including, innocent until PROVEN guilty,- by due process of trial by LAW, not due process of trial by the Media hacks – for a REASON. OFR this VERY Reason. If YOU are willing to just give that away after all the Blood that has been spilled to give you those rights you can just go right ahead, In Some OTHER Country…maybe Russisa, or Cuba, N Korea or China would be more suitable to your way of thinking that you want to live. Or should everyone but you and yours have to fax over what is asked for?
If a US Senator had suspicions about my finances, I would be nothing but eager to prove him or her wrong.
“This is written by Chris Ray who is obviously a Pagan”
I would respond but the calming hand of Athena has stayed me!
You should write for Jack Chick with a caricature of non-Christians like that.
What have you not come across Pagan in that Bible you read. Thats not my word that would be what God calls the non-believer but thats right you dont believe in God. Theres another bible word to describe you which is evident of your post The Foolish Man you may locate him by the Rich Man you reference.
No, I have not come across it in my Bible:
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=pagan&qs_version=9
Leon,
Apology accepted. And I, in turn, apologize.
What I have been trying to figure out is what is going on. I had not heard of Sen. Grassley’s inquiries, or even of these particular churches until this thread. I found Chris Ray’s post to be long on personal opinion and short on fact, and pointed it out, based on my interpretation of his remarks as indicating he was of the “angry atheist” ilk. My error. I should merely asked about the background of the issue.
It always surprises me, however, when other atheists make any claims about what is or is not biblilical or cannonical. I have studied the bible quite thoroughly and would never presume that I could interpret it for someone else., especailly since interpretation is based on more than just reading, but also on the traditions of whatever sect and denomination a particular Xtian belongs to.
I haven’t yet followed the links you posted further down the page, and I will. I will also want to discuss what I learn from those links. Thanks.
Hey! If you’re going to plug the Greek pantheon post, at least provide the link!
http://theedger.org/2008/09/06/zeus-et-al-poised-to-make-a-comeback/
I should have said, ‘further up thepage” as I now see that those links were in the replies to post #22..
John,
Is there any objective reporting (not editiorializing) of this issue you could point us to?
Thanks.
john,
If you are the same as “John” below, then merge these two posts and remove any redundancies as necessary.
I’m wondering whihc laws you are referring to that the Senator wrote wrt asking for information about donors. I just don’t know which one it is, and would like to review it.
I agree with you that if I were a member of a congregation whose leaders submitted my information direclty to Sen. Grassley or any other person other than an IRS agent asking in accordance with regulation, I would be highly peeved and would even consider legal action.
That’s what I’m trying to figure out.
But that’s just you.
Other people have other ideas about how to respond to Senators who seem to be overstepping their limits. Are you saying those ideas are wrong just because they don’t match what you would do?
Here is the question that is begged by your repeated insistence that if these minsitries are innocnet they should have nothing to hide: If they are innocent, then WHY is Sen. Grassley asking?
The obvious reponse is, “Because Sen. Grassley doesn’t think so.”
To which I ask, yet again, “What is the source of his suspicion?”
Other than your (Chris’s) comments about big ticket items and family employees, we don’t know..
Do you have something more substantial than your unsupported opinion about the reason for the inquireis to give us?
First of all thats not a real bible and yet I am not surprised. Your right -pagan is not in the bible-thats what I get for dumbing it down and using the common word for today. I believe infidel is the bible word your looking for which purely means non-believer. Nice post Spike- Immature Pagans(oops I mean infidel) so not surprised yet again. I would say I would pray for you as the infidels think every good christian should say but since I probably wont pray for you I will say hope you like warm weather because hell is hot and none of this will matter when you take the journey you dont believe in.
Amen! With all the corrupyion that goes on in Government why attack those who are helping to restore the moral fiber of this nation? What about all the good that these ministries are doing? Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless, healing the broken hearted, and giving hope to those in despair, all that the word of God says believers should do! Making a difference all over the world, truly manifesting the Love of God. I will always support the work of God Spiritually and naturally, and my giving will always be rewarded by the God we worship and serve. The Church is Glorious and She is rich and powerful and the gates of hell will not prevail against her! The Spirit of the Ant-Christ will not stop The Blessing of God from restoring, and healing and prospering and delivering God’s people.
Precious, Itis obvious that you are in the same darkness about what Jesus was saying as the individual Jesus made the statement to. Read the whole Gospel ask God for understandingYou see when you are a giver you never run out because it just keeps coming back multiplyed you can’t out give God!
What is a “real” bible? Have you never read how biblegateway.com was developed? Don’t you know what their sources are?
One of the thingsI seein the responses to Chris’s comments is that mostof the self-identified Xtians are willing to say the most off-the wall things without any kind of support at all. (I have identified the exceptions above.)
I wish a Xtian would enlighten me as to why other Xtians are so willing to say whatever pops into their heads, without any basis in reality. I’m generalizing because the posts above are a representative sample of what I see from Xtian bloggers and commenters.
Please don’t think I believe this is limited to Xtians, but if the admonission “thou shalt not lie” has any meaning at all, I would think that those who consider the bible to be a guide to their morality would at least take the time to make sure what they are saying is true before they let their mouths, or fingers, start working.
No, Chris you most definitely are not. Pastor Dollar preaches the whole Gospel not just about the money aspect of prosperity. You see Bible prosperity cover s every area of life. Money with poor health is not prosperity, money without right relationship with God is not prosperity, and .money gotten by deceit and used for evil purpose is not true prosperity If you are a Born Again Christian and JESUS IS LORD of your Life and the Holy Sprit dwell in you He will lead you and guide you into all Truth regarding the abundant Life Jesus died so that all of us could have. If not I pray that you will be very soon, that is the only way you will be able to understand and have this God kind of Life. I pray that you have a face to face emcounter with the Lord of Glory! He wants you to know the Love and Peace and Joy that Pastor Dollar, Kenneth Copeland and all of us in the Body of Christ have found and are finding daily! We are and will always adhere to the laws of the land as long as they do not oppose God’s laws God’s word is final authority in every situation. We fear not man or spirit because is with us and in us and for us! We already have the victory the mouth of every liar will cease in Jesus Name! Isaiah 54:17
Well aren’t you interesting. Considering the fact that you cant even bring yourself to write out CHRISTIAN you have some nerve telling me how I should act. I dont care how biblegateway was developed and I am aware of its history. The statement I made would be my opinion you know like all the crap that comes out of your computer. The person that is throwing around scripture incorrectly doesn’t even use a leather bound bible that he has to sit down and read. Most CHRISTIANS that truely love the word of God have that bible that is worn from going everywhere with them, or the fact that they have made notes and highlighted where the Lord has ministered to them. Typing into a bible search engine the word you want so you can make a point is not studying the bible. If you were a CHRISTIAN you would know most of us value our bible and would not replace it with an online program but I do acknowledge its usefulness as a study tool. If I am wrong and you do have that “real” bible that you honor as the word of God then please correct my opinion. As far as Thou Shalt Not Lie just because CHRISTIANS dont think like you does not make them liars. You are choosing to lump all CHRISTIANS together where as I would not acknowledge most of them as bible believing, word of God following CHRISTIANS. Lets take Obama for instance he lies all the time, he thinks homosexuals should be celebrated and married, he thinks a woman should kill her unborn baby whenever she wants just because she does not want it AND yet through all of that he still stands up and calls himself a CHRISTIAN. Well when you are standing before the judgement of God and he says depart from me I never knew you rest assure there will be CHRISTIANS like Obama going down with you. The point I had when I started this post is to the CHRISTIANS that post scripture after scripture to try and convince you your wrong should remember the scripture “dont cast your pearls before swine”!! Considering the fact that you dont correct your typing errors do you re-read before you post and consider what is coming out of your fingers.
Since your so good at quoting the ten commandments you should try a few like “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” in reference to your Athena comment. Maybe you prefer “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain” and “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” its to bad you dont believe in God because so far it does not look like its going so well for you.(just in case you want to check me those scriptures came straight from the KJV the old fashioned way)
Read the Bible and let it interpret itself! The message is clear that biblical prosperity is well documented and is one of the most written about areas in the Bible. Why, one should ask, would a loving and caring God not want the best for His people? What is so wonderful and enticing about poverty and lack? In addition, it is prosperity that is going to help these ministries take the message of hope and love and prosperity to a sick and dying world. Is the world going to bring this message? And, regarding poverty, check out the Bible; It has been with us from the beginning and Jesus told us that we would always have it. So, even if the church gave all of its money, after expenses, to the poor, you would still have the poor. Some people just won’t work, or don’t want to, or are too lazy or unmotivated to do anything about their own situation, but, would want our government or someone else to take care of them. The Bible states that he who doesn’t work shouldn’t even eat! I realize that there are situations that require assistance, but the greater percentage of them don’t. And, answer this question. Has the government ever done anything better than private enterprise? Check out the post office, welfare, medicare, and others. It is very unfair to criticize these ministries for all they do and not criticize our own government for not doing their job better.
First of all GOD is LOVE AGAPE, Covenant. He Love gave His only SON,LOVE Jesus who is the Christ the anointed ONE. One meaning total agreement, exactly the same. one agree’s with the other. He came to the earth to destroy the work of the devil who destroyed the covenant between GOD and man through deception Isha eve and disobedience Ish adam to gain authority over the earth to become the god of the world,[people ]. JESUS walked and lived fulfilling the law of the old covenant with breaking it and then by faith took the law of sin and death upon himself died seperated from LOVE went to hell DESTROYED death took the keys away from the devil Athurorty was raised from the dead by LOVE GLORY! in order to take back what adam and eve gave to the devil. Whoever will call upon the LORD will be redeemed from death delivered from darkness and translated into the Kingdom of GOD Eternal Life. Those who choose not to believe and receive that sacrifice COVENANT of LOVE will self destruct go to hell. Its the responsibility of LOVE to PRAY LISTEN and OBEY. I speak for myself first. WE are to be lead by LOVE in our decisions. The blind will lead the blind. LOVE never fails LOVE walks in the Mist of a crowd with being seen or heard. It will capture those who respond.those who oppose will self destruct. We do not wrestle with flesh reasoning debate opinion. LOVE Prays destroys the blindness and opens the eyes for those who will receive LOVE. This is not a lack of what we should be doing,But rather a lot of knowing who has already done it. I have a situation that I have allowed to pull on me to long . Please agree with the word with me as I fix my Heart trusting and Obeying what LOVE has told me to do. TOO be strong in the Lord. and the POWER of HIS MIGHT not my own reasoning. LOVE Kenny Crider.
WHOO!!!!!!!! for the constitution of this great country where you can have the right to express anything you want with out regard for anyone else. There has been so much controversy on what you consider a “Mega” church yet the one church that boasts of having the largest membership is not on the list of the head hunters. In case you didn’t know which church I am talking about it is the Mormon church.
I will agree that there are many versions of the Bible, all of which are man’s interpretation of what they mean. So even if you can quote scripture it is still your interpretation which will be different from mine. Isn’t that what this country is all about. The freedom to believe differently from everyone else and speak your mind without repercutions. Far be it for me to try and convert you.
Whether you are a believer or not is really illrelavant. You have the right provided by the constitution to say whatever you would like to say. The great thing is I have the right t disagree. I want to thank the Senator for looking out for my interests but I resent the fact that he thinks I am stupid enough not to know where my money is going and who is spending it. Canhe Senator really tell me where my tax dollars are being spent? and how much of the money I donate to the government is going for charity? or sorry I forgot those who are on welfare are charity.
I think he had better look in his own back yard before he comes and tells me what is wrong with mine.
P.S. JOHN 16:33
I’m surprised how long this blog is.
Seriously.
If anyone wants to actually check, the good Senator is suppossed to go through the IRS to get his info. I assume that no one will check prior to responding to this, but it is documented within several places that the MegaChurches initially in question, volunteered to audits from the IRS, as they are suppossed to. Several had just finished, and passed with flying colors, audits already done by the IRS (the one’s in question go through an IRS, financial, and business audit every year) Since all pass every year, it does bring up a questioning eye towards the politicians in question, and not the defendants, as to why these things were brought up, unless to ignite some social issues.
Remember people, we can all be moved socially, by things we see or hear.
Since the investigations were put on hold, after the MegaChurches offered themselves up to fresh audits conducted by the IRS, it again raises the question of political motivation.
If only specific churches were targeted, and then those investigations were put on pause by the legal issues in question, why then were others targeted after the fact?
As far as prosperity in the bible…
Deut 8 – It is God who gives the power to get wealth.
Gen 32:9 – do this and I will make you prosper.
Gen 39:2 – The Lord was with him and he prospered.
Deut 28 – shows you’ll be blessed beyond some peoples ability to believe it, and you can be cursed beyond the prideful person’s ability to accept it – but it still happens
If you’re arguing with someone that doesn’t believe it when they see or hear it, you are wasting your time, and YOU then are in the wrong.
Father, as Christians, we ask for forgiveness for allowing our focus to settle where it should not. We pray for those that have not come to you, and thank you for those who have.
We give you praise for all revelation that brings us correction, and thank you for the strength to walk as you see fit – not by our will, but yours.
Praise God forever.
Amen.
The last two posts, #39 and 40, are what I owuld hope for fromreasoanble people who disagree. Thanks!
Cuts both ways! Meaning: Whenever we find ourselves arguing with those who make it clear that they have dug in regarding their position, we really out to just say, “Have a nice day!”
So, to this thread I say, “Have a nice day!”
God is very clear on His will for us:
Deut. 8:18 – Remember the Lord your God, for it is He Who gives you the power to get wealth…
Psalm 35:27 – Let the Lord be magnified, Who takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servant..
I cannot find one Scripture where God says He wants those Who love and obey Him to live in poverty.
Deut. 30:19-20 – I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; oh, that you would choose life!….love the Lord your God, obey His voice, cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days.
God always wants the very best for us! Every law He ever set down was because of His love. If we obeyed the laws, life and blessings would come. That’s all He ever wants for us. Why would He want anything less for His children?
I assume you want the very best for your children, if you are a Daddy…I know I do for my kids and grandchild. I want them to make right choices so that good things will come their way. I raised them, disciplined them, and loved on them so that when they grew up and became responsible for their choices, they would make good ones and sow good seed, so they would reap the benefits of doing so.
Father God is the same way. The Bible is our training and discipline. We experience a
one-on-one relationship full of love and trust with Him everyday. I am learning to make better choices and think more of others than myself and sow into peoples’ lives as I do
study His Word and talk with Him.
I think, in fact I know, Chris, if you would ask Him to open that Bible to you, to speak to your heart – for I hear so much anger in your words, and you use the Scriptures as a weapon, instead of as a guide to life – let the words minister to you, touch you.
You are hearing from all of these people who have been changed by those words. I pray you will let them change you, too.
So wait, is “pagan” in there or not? if it isn’t, why did you say that it’s Gods term for nonbelievers, and why did I know more about your holy book than you?
Is that like how ‘pagan’ comes from the KJV the old fashioned way, too?
I know a mega pastor who went into the buisness of preaching because he was a stockbroker and found ministry to be more profitable then assest management. In church ministry, the irs does not follow up on how much personal income you acquire. The world will always have decieved christians because most people who claim to follow christ ,if they really thought about it,are follwing a man who tells them what to think about Christ.Get ALONE with CHRIST and then you can see HIM. He is free and does not ask you to buy your pastor a jet. At least my Christ doesn’t…I’ll follow HIM!
Kay
Followers of the prosperity gospel are believing in the anti-christ.
They are frauds.