Comments on: Artistically Challenged http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/ Science. Humanism. Atheism. Politics. Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:06:32 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.1 hourly 1 By: Spike http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-820 Spike Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:33:44 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-820 <blockquote>You guys usually blog about religious fallacies and then have comment wars over the internet...</blockquote> And y'all did it anyway! :) I have been involved with the Biotechnology Expo as a judge of the dramatic entries. There are also categories for music, visual art, storytelling, journalism and business along with the expected categories in the scientific specialties. There is plenty of room for arts in the sciences, logic and freethought community. Freethought is thinking freely. Artists certainly have to learn how to think freely, without constraints and to defy conventions in their quest to translate the world into art. Artists are actually more likely to be spiritual non-theists than are scientific types (though I don't have any data to back up this claim). I think it should be easy to attract artiists to freethought. Emphasize opportunities for expression and refrain from commenting until one truly understands what is being expressed! There is a tendency among atheists to be negative. Heck, it's in the name, and most of us became atheists by <i>rejecting</i> religion. Why not relish the fact that you are now free from superstition, and start enjoying that freedom, rather than focussing on how wrong the other folks are?

You guys usually blog about religious fallacies and then have comment wars over the internet…

And y’all did it anyway! :)

I have been involved with the Biotechnology Expo as a judge of the dramatic entries. There are also categories for music, visual art, storytelling, journalism and business along with the expected categories in the scientific specialties. There is plenty of room for arts in the sciences, logic and freethought community.

Freethought is thinking freely. Artists certainly have to learn how to think freely, without constraints and to defy conventions in their quest to translate the world into art. Artists are actually more likely to be spiritual non-theists than are scientific types (though I don’t have any data to back up this claim).

I think it should be easy to attract artiists to freethought. Emphasize opportunities for expression and refrain from commenting until one truly understands what is being expressed!

There is a tendency among atheists to be negative. Heck, it’s in the name, and most of us became atheists by rejecting religion. Why not relish the fact that you are now free from superstition, and start enjoying that freedom, rather than focussing on how wrong the other folks are?

]]> By: Abhishek Bhatnagar http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-451 Abhishek Bhatnagar Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:12:37 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-451 You're very right Katie, the way to further diversify thought is not by gender, but by creativity. The one thing that I do disagree with though and that seems to have been said a number of times here is that science is boring. I don't think the average scientist is the introvert unsocial narrow-minded person Hollywood makes them out to be. Some geeks might be scientists, but all most scientists are not geeks. People that I consider to be the greatest scientists of the modern world include Steven Pinker, David Attenborough (almost scientist), Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Richard Dawkins, Richard Leakey to name a few, and these are surely amongst the most colourful of people. More to the subject thought, your article reminded me of the following quote by Bansky: “The thing I hate the most about advertising is that it attracts all the bright, creative and ambitious young people, leaving us mainly with the slow and self-obsessed to become our artists. Modern art is a disaster area. Never in the field of human history has so much been used by so many to say so little.” Maybe the problem is not the polar difference between art and science, but maybe most pedants reject art because it's often so unscientific. Personally, the thing that annoys me the most about mainstream art is it's attachment to Freudianism. You’re very right Katie, the way to further diversify thought is not by gender, but by creativity. The one thing that I do disagree with though and that seems to have been said a number of times here is that science is boring. I don’t think the average scientist is the introvert unsocial narrow-minded person Hollywood makes them out to be. Some geeks might be scientists, but all most scientists are not geeks. People that I consider to be the greatest scientists of the modern world include Steven Pinker, David Attenborough (almost scientist), Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Richard Dawkins, Richard Leakey to name a few, and these are surely amongst the most colourful of people.

More to the subject thought, your article reminded me of the following quote by Bansky:
“The thing I hate the most about advertising is that it attracts all the bright, creative and ambitious young people, leaving us mainly with the slow and self-obsessed to become our artists. Modern art is a disaster area. Never in the field of human history has so much been used by so many to say so little.”

Maybe the problem is not the polar difference between art and science, but maybe most pedants reject art because it’s often so unscientific. Personally, the thing that annoys me the most about mainstream art is it’s attachment to Freudianism.

]]> By: Not a Robot http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-446 Not a Robot Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:24:41 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-446 Ron, I totally agree with you. My biggest turn off from what I've encountered with the secular movement is the sometimes militant political rhetoric. I don't like it in religion and I don't like it in secularism. There's no positivity in it. It is not that I am afraid of controversy, I just don't believe it fosters a good environment for discussion, my brain shuts-off in the midst of temper tantrums. To expand on Kish's point about churches being warm and welcoming, I have to say that everytime I've been to a church I've never felt threatened or stupid, they are indeed good at that (maybe it's the lighting or the candles, i dont know) A little fluff kind of soften the sometimes harsh edges of scientific reality, especially for those who are making their way from the church to the secular world. Ron, I totally agree with you.

My biggest turn off from what I’ve encountered with the secular movement is the sometimes militant political rhetoric. I don’t like it in religion and I don’t like it in secularism. There’s no positivity in it. It is not that I am afraid of controversy, I just don’t believe it fosters a good environment for discussion, my brain shuts-off in the midst of temper tantrums.

To expand on Kish’s point about churches being warm and welcoming, I have to say that everytime I’ve been to a church I’ve never felt threatened or stupid, they are indeed good at that (maybe it’s the lighting or the candles, i dont know) A little fluff kind of soften the sometimes harsh edges of scientific reality, especially for those who are making their way from the church to the secular world.

]]> By: Christopher http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-427 Christopher Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:10:19 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-427 Religious devotion has indeed inspired extraordinary works of art. I would wager, however, that for every quality work of relgious art you can find at least one equally worthy piece the creation of which had nothing to do with religion at all (or, more likely, was inspired by oppression by religion). I would also argue that religion has inspired some of the most dull, insipid, lifeless art around. Have you ever tried to listen to Christian rock music? Or observed up close one of those tacky paintings of Jesus on the cross, where the eyes follow you around the room? It's just bad stuff. Furthermore, I hate it when we Atheists are accused of wanting to rid the universe of mystery, to "boil everything down" to cold hard fact. Nothing could be further from the truth. Everything <i>is</i> made of cold hard facts. It is in discovering those facts that we reveal the true beauty of the universe. Religious devotion has indeed inspired extraordinary works of art. I would wager, however, that for every quality work of relgious art you can find at least one equally worthy piece the creation of which had nothing to do with religion at all (or, more likely, was inspired by oppression by religion).

I would also argue that religion has inspired some of the most dull, insipid, lifeless art around. Have you ever tried to listen to Christian rock music? Or observed up close one of those tacky paintings of Jesus on the cross, where the eyes follow you around the room? It’s just bad stuff.

Furthermore, I hate it when we Atheists are accused of wanting to rid the universe of mystery, to “boil everything down” to cold hard fact. Nothing could be further from the truth. Everything is made of cold hard facts. It is in discovering those facts that we reveal the true beauty of the universe.

]]> By: Not a Robot http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-425 Not a Robot Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:45:52 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-425 I think what I meant was, look at their art and their emotion. The Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica, the intricate geometrical inlay of mosque floor, poems prose painting pictures, they have built this emotional connection to their religion. I find atheism sometime hard to want to accept even though I know its true. There's just an emptiness to wanting to boil everything down to the science of it. You guys need to talk more about just humans and less about the science of humans. I think what I meant was, look at their art and their emotion. The Sistine Chapel, St. Peter’s Basilica, the intricate geometrical inlay of mosque floor, poems prose painting pictures, they have built this emotional connection to their religion. I find atheism sometime hard to want to accept even though I know its true. There’s just an emptiness to wanting to boil everything down to the science of it. You guys need to talk more about just humans and less about the science of humans.

]]> By: Katie Kish http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-424 Katie Kish Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:08:30 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-424 A.H I totally agree with you. ... I think the most annoying thing about a lot of atheists is that they're so arrogant and want to teach the world everything. I wrote a thing a while about about why I hate atheists, and that was my number one reason. Although I know I am guilty of doing it too. And it can end is some REALLY bad conversations! (Einsteins!!!) A.H I totally agree with you. … I think the most annoying thing about a lot of atheists is that they’re so arrogant and want to teach the world everything. I wrote a thing a while about about why I hate atheists, and that was my number one reason. Although I know I am guilty of doing it too. And it can end is some REALLY bad conversations! (Einsteins!!!)

]]> By: Katie Kish http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-423 Katie Kish Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:54:43 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-423 <blockquote>You guys usually blog about religious fallacies and then have comment wars over the internet, but having a face to face talk with someone who is deeply religious you can’t help by envy their devotion and passion</blockquote> THeir devotion and passion? or their incredibly deep conditioning that will haunt them for the rest of their lives even if they want to get rid of it? We see it as different things.

You guys usually blog about religious fallacies and then have comment wars over the internet, but having a face to face talk with someone who is deeply religious you can’t help by envy their devotion and passion

THeir devotion and passion? or their incredibly deep conditioning that will haunt them for the rest of their lives even if they want to get rid of it? We see it as different things.

]]> By: Katie Kish http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-422 Katie Kish Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:53:27 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-422 I think it's really hard to do any art form... I can't paint anything worth anyones viewing if my life depended on it. I find creating and playing music a whole hell of a lot easier. But you're right - I think ranking art is... totally unproductive. im cool with pretentiousness. I think it’s really hard to do any art form… I can’t paint anything worth anyones viewing if my life depended on it. I find creating and playing music a whole hell of a lot easier. But you’re right – I think ranking art is… totally unproductive.

im cool with pretentiousness.

]]> By: Katie Kish http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-418 Katie Kish Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:51:42 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-418 We're trying, we'll be holding an Art show sponsored by CFI in February, and hopefully doing an event in december that is catered toward this crowd rather than a science lecture. *crosses fingers* ANd you're right, spiritualism is a hard topic for people in our building because they're worried about sounding too fluffy or supernatural, and lets face it - for those who don't know what it is... spiritualism can sound a little supernatural. I think a huge reason churches are so successful are because they are so damn good at creating a sense of comfort and community. I think bringing the art community in would really help us all in just chilling out and becoming close in that sense. We’re trying, we’ll be holding an Art show sponsored by CFI in February, and hopefully doing an event in december that is catered toward this crowd rather than a science lecture. *crosses fingers* ANd you’re right, spiritualism is a hard topic for people in our building because they’re worried about sounding too fluffy or supernatural, and lets face it – for those who don’t know what it is… spiritualism can sound a little supernatural.

I think a huge reason churches are so successful are because they are so damn good at creating a sense of comfort and community. I think bringing the art community in would really help us all in just chilling out and becoming close in that sense.

]]> By: Ron Brown http://factonista.org/2008/08/26/artistically-challenged/comment-page-1/#comment-413 Ron Brown Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:39:34 +0000 http://theedger.org/?p=810#comment-413 It's not just that religion provides AN answer. It provides many answers: how did all this happen? (more importantly) how should we live? why should we live that way? to what ends to be live this way? what happens after death? what is important? And also extremely important, it provides a social context in which we understand, enact and pursue these types of answers. Meaning, purpose, social identity, understanding of the world, the self, morality, being a part of a group, and being a part of a transcendent project. And lets not forget the negative factors that discourage defection: social ostracism, cognitive dissonance, loss aversion (e.g., previous investment in the beliefs), fear of a meaning vacuum and directionlessness, etc. It’s not just that religion provides AN answer. It provides many answers: how did all this happen? (more importantly) how should we live? why should we live that way? to what ends to be live this way? what happens after death? what is important?

And also extremely important, it provides a social context in which we understand, enact and pursue these types of answers.

Meaning, purpose, social identity, understanding of the world, the self, morality, being a part of a group, and being a part of a transcendent project. And lets not forget the negative factors that discourage defection: social ostracism, cognitive dissonance, loss aversion (e.g., previous investment in the beliefs), fear of a meaning vacuum and directionlessness, etc.

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