Peace.

- You’re implying that there is a god and that there is some kind of merit in a Hebrew saying. Evidence or GTFO. Pointless point by you.

“2) The truth we know is always first hated — especially where radical and shaking to establishments. It is even violently opposed. Eventually, it becomes common sense and the heretics of previous decades and centuries are heralded as pioneers usually long after they’re dead.”

- Wrong. Some theories which turn out to be correct are ridiculed at first. Some theories which turn out to be incorrect are also ridiculed at first. Some heretics of previous decades are eventually vindicated. Some heretics of previous decades are not. This “truth” we know – please provide a definition, because I’m pretty sure the truth I know is very different from what you perceive truth to be. Another pointless point by you.

[blah blah blah...too many retarded, meaningless comments not worth remarking on individually...]

“…Oh you Allopaths and skeptics!!! How miserable must be the collapsing world for you?! There was truly a time when I mocked homeopathy, too, you know.”

- And then what, did you receive a brain injury?

“That’s about all I’ll warn to the skeptics. Just keep in mind that there is always something more to human life in this world than our material bodies and our being the sum of mere parts…”

- O rly? Again, evidence?

“History … never remembers well those who lied and conspired in hatred of the truth; for Justice does prevail in the end, in this world and the next.”

- Your definition of truth really does need clarification, as does your definition of “well”. Either way, history remembers Hitler and the Nazis well, in the sense that history books are full of mentions of him. They are also fondly remembered by those who continue to follow their creeds (and let me say here I am not one of them). Justice prevails in the end? Ha, I bet all the victims of the concentration camps would be pleased to know that. If they could know anything, which they can’t, because they’re dead (omg!).

““What do I fear most here? Why am I so threatened at the possibility that homeopathy may be real? Is it because I have invested too much in being a proud skeptic? Am I afraid to be humbled? Do I have personal insecurities which compel me to be a know-it-all? Have I lost touch with my earlier love of mystery and being humbled? Being amazed? What has so killed my soul caused by my own corruptions and the world’s tainting of me?”

- Nothing. I’m not, because it isn’t. I haven’t invested anything but a working brain and a bit of time using it. No. No. No. No. Nothing has killed an imaginary soul which has never existed.

“The Truth that is behind and in homeopathy can never be stopped. It can never be conquered. It will always continue to grow and prosper all the more as a direct function of the tenacity and lies tossed at it. Actually, ignoring the truth is the best strategy our enemies can take. Trying to align with and corrupt it again (as was once done by AMA) is a more effective attack on homeopathy. But, you can’t do that so well a second time around.”

- It’s your own delusions that will never be stopped or conquered and your own stupidity that will continue to grow and prosper. There is no evidence in support of homeopathy. Just because you think it works, doesn’t make it work. How does one corrupt homeopathy? By pissing in the water?

“We do now have the real world of medical science no longer wanting to stake their credibility on whether or not homeopathy works…”

- The real world of medical science has spent enough time on this horseshit and it doesn’t work. Now is the time for the real world of medical science to use its resources researching actual effective remedies.

“…Skeptics are never the enemy of homeopathy; Just the stubborn, malicious, and foolish ones. Skeptics who value truth are very easy to convert whenever they feel like waking up, and their presence as the nemesis of our craft is what sharpens us for the present and future as the effective medical science and art we are.”

- Skeptics are easy to convert to this gutter nonsense you’re trying to sell? Do you perform lobotomies, too?

Fag.

I am uncertain on your stance: do you like us sceptics or loathe us? Are those threats or are they playfully sarcastic over-indulgent, pseudo-passionate talk about “dust” and “enemies of history” and so on?

You made some terrible statements.

“1) There’s an old Hebrew saying that one of the many names for God is “Truth”. Therefore, that which is Truth can never be destroyed no matter how hard the world tries. And that which tries always becomes the forgotten ash heap of history.

2) The truth we know is always first hated — especially where radical and shaking to establishments. It is even violently opposed. Eventually, it becomes common sense and the heretics of previous decades and centuries are heralded as pioneers usually long after they’re dead.”

You begin with the Schopenhauer 3 stages: ridicule, opposition and acceptance. You think that because its “hated” because its “radical and shaking to establishments” that somehow there is some truth in it. Consider this: consider the billions of ideas that were mocked and have no passed into “dust”, as you like to say. Do you know about them? Of course not because they were mocked, opposed and so on. That holds nothing to its validiity. They laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Copernicus but they also laughed at Bugs Bunny.

Also you speak of truth as though you know what it is. Well sir/ma’am we are attempting to get to the truth, using scientifically verifiable and objective means. It is as Einstein called it “the most precious thing we have”. And though as I’ve said we remain open to what results and evidence tells us, so far it has said nothing about homeopathy to “shake the grounds of establishments”. It might shake it in that it is annoying and, worse, that people can die unnecessarily from CAM, but otherwise nothing that shakes the medical establishment – except only a good way if they find anything.

“3) The world’s wicked and treacherous always propagandize, ”

- which is not at all what you are doing … but regardless we look at what you have to say regarding evidence and good reasoning. so far i have seen no example of it.

“3) A wise professor on military history and strategy once taught that evil (and lies — or vile Establishments of all kinds) have a way of sewing widespread resentment and hatred as a direct function of their growth. They become corrupt and tyrannical over time no matter how noble the earlier cause.”

two number 3’s? very impressive. but what are you alluding to here? the medical establishment? the sceptic movement?

“If you want to keep echoing it like one of history’s fools, go right ahead and take your destiny. Doesn’t make me mad.”

- no, but some of your views certainly do. you have said nothing that can actually contribute to this discussion so far.

“Oh you Allopaths and skeptics!!! How miserable must be the collapsing world for you?! ”

- its actually quite nice thank you.

“No, I wouldn’t spend a dime on the snake oil even when sick, but one day did and I oddly felt better. It tickled my interest from there. A whole, exciting new world opened up to my eyes”

- anecdotes are not evidence and do nothing to show its efficacy. once again people keep bringing up anecdotes as evidence and it just won’t stand.

“Just keep in mind that there is always something more to human life in this world than our material bodies and our being the sum of mere parts. ”

- says who? I certainly won’t keep that in mind. There is no reason at all to accept this sentence.

“History and good in the world never takes the side of those who arrogantly opposed anything which greatly aided and cured ailing human life. It never remembers well those who lied and conspired in hatred of the truth; for Justice does prevail in the end, in this world and the next.”

- this world and the next? whoa whoa, who said anything about an afterlife? and “greatly aided and cured ailing human life” – i assume you mean the medical establishment? why would we oppose the medical establishment? and if you are referring to CAM or homeopathy, that’s not true. if it was, the beauty of it is that it would then simply ALSO be part of the medical establishment. we want to help people, save them, why would we reject something which heals great numbers of people – but it does not do it repeatably and does not stand up to the rigorous medical trials (which any form of medicine undergoes why should there be special case for homeopathy? we do it this way to save people which you don’t seem to understand).

it makes no sense for us to oppose the medical establishment so this point does not make sense. you are fighting strawmen.

“It’s really ashame to be a slave to one’s emotions rather than reason,”

- the first time we agree. exactly.

“Your life in this world becomes as trivial over time as it deserves to be. Nothing but forgotten dust in the wind is your way when your hearts are so darkened and your minds so cemented. To be on the wrong side of history is nothing at all to keep as a vanity, and you’re welcome to it all you like!”

- this is the kind of talk i was asking you about. seems to be more emotional than dealing with reason. hypocrisy i say.

“Skeptics who value truth are very easy to convert ”

- tell you what, you convert the medical field. then you have a higher chance of convincing me (and us as sceptics i think). but for now, im going to go with what the medical establishment says.

1) There’s an old Hebrew saying that one of the many names for God is “Truth”. Therefore, that which is Truth can never be destroyed no matter how hard the world tries. And that which tries always becomes the forgotten ash heap of history.

2) The truth we know is always first hated — especially where radical and shaking to establishments. It is even violently opposed. Eventually, it becomes common sense and the heretics of previous decades and centuries are heralded as pioneers usually long after they’re dead.

3) The world’s wicked and treacherous always propagandize, but they all rot away as forgotten corpses over time. See, men always appreciate the Truth; for even the wicked hear it deep in their souls, and it makes them rile around with a kind of burning inside. And, it has always been the way of prophets to speak Truth — regardless of what stones the world tosses. To lead things (and good conspiracies), however, a leader must also carefully balance Truth with man’s receptivity to it, and so we homeopaths should remember that it can be also a shooting of ourselves in the foot to give away all our magician tricks and trade secrets. It is good to give away our work in the sciences on it, but not all. Let the world beg for that over time. Things peddled directly tend to be rejected while things retained as guarded secret (even if for entertainment’s sake) tend to sell the truth best by the indirect approach. It’s all a selling of ideas. The fight here is about competing ideas and medical philosophies at the core.

3) A wise professor on military history and strategy once taught that evil (and lies — or vile Establishments of all kinds) have a way of sewing widespread resentment and hatred as a direct function of their growth. They become corrupt and tyrannical over time no matter how noble the earlier cause. With growth, the monster moves more slowly. It tramples upon the innocent and creates so much hatred for it that it is easily toppled under its own weight. And homeopathy is just as vulnerable to that as Allopathy’s world has been. Both require a change of way in order to be something better than they presently are and to avoid being that ugly beast of Hell.

4) Now, the below comment (noted in the top of this page) is a rather tyrannical, know-it-all statement and no true scientist or even sane M.D. would ever dare make such a tar-brushing, god-like, pronouncement of what is and isn’t Medical Law:

“The very basis of homeopathy doesn’t render it suitable as a replacement or even as an ‘alternative’ to evidence-based conventional medicine.”

….It’s a repetition of lie and propaganda, but that’s okay; for nobody will remember it just a couple decades down the road. If you want to keep echoing it like one of history’s fools, go right ahead and take your destiny. Doesn’t make me mad. Makes me laugh, but is also very sad.

The Truth that is behind and in homeopathy can never be stopped. It can never be conquered. It will always continue to grow and prosper all the more as a direct function of the tenacity and lies tossed at it. Actually, ignoring the truth is the best strategy our enemies can take. Trying to align with and corrupt it again (as was once done by AMA) is a more effective attack on homeopathy. But, you can’t do that so well a second time around.

We do now have the real world of medical science no longer wanting to stake their credibility on whether or not homeopathy works. You’ll see the claims of Placebo Effect, nonsense, and invalidity as microdoses fading out over time as the sheep continue to smarten up. Allopathy — for all its hatred — cannot fight the truth.

And so where will that allopathic dragon fight and protect next as we raid her nest and smash her eggs?

The issue of “Efficacy” is your only safe ground left, but we’ll eventually burn you atop that defensive postion, too!

Oh, she’ll claim:

“Well, it may be working and there may be something mysterious and fundamental to it that science just doesn’t yet understand. That part is exciting. But, it remains to be proven and documented as a serious medical science. It lacks standardization of practice (of course so does Allopathy). It lacks hardcore, research presentation, archiving, and penetration of technical journals into the common medical community, and so we really can’t properly gauge or understand it. It’s remains as elusive to we in the West as does Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda’s way. We know it often works well — and probably outside of placebo for many cases — but we’re just not yet ready to buy into it. We don’t fully understand it. It needs further study and integration over the years. If it is working, then there would have to be fundamental and exciting new things awaiting to be found in it, so wisdom ought not fully reject it. We, as Conventional Medicine M.D.’s, just are more comfortable in our own backyard. Those people are often fanatical in their way like a medical cult! We can’t fight the reality and reported efficacy of homeopathy anymore, but we can still resist fully accepting it as a replacement or alternative to the things we reliably know within our own scientific framework. Its exploration is best for the more advanced medical research institutions, and maybe they will flow improved practice down to us someday. In the end, we are too humbled as scientists by its continuing evolution to really properly comment, and so choose to wait and see. ”

…And that line, if Allopathy had the smarts to take it up, is the truthful propaganda which most homeopaths wouldn’t disagree with terribly or bitterly resent. It’ll eventually be the last hill any credible M.D. or scientist can stand upon when facing his patients. The future common sense accepted after the radical heresy has conquered.

…Oh you Allopaths and skeptics!!! How miserable must be the collapsing world for you?! There was truly a time when I mocked homeopathy, too, you know.

“Homo pathy what?!!! The hell you say?!!! Isn’t that some hokus pokus of those hippie flakes — no good, stinkin’ commies and pot smokers — with all their wellness jive. Those stinkin’ be well and be centered fruit loops?! Those organic yoga sissies! ”

No, I wouldn’t spend a dime on the snake oil even when sick, but one day did and I oddly felt better. It tickled my interest from there. A whole, exciting new world opened up to my eyes. Old questions resolved. New mysteries and questions to answer. Vast new medical powers possible for self and country. Overlapping science and technical realms just waiting to be discovered among that mysterious reason it DOES work. Billions to trillions of dollars there just waiting to be harvested like a great gold mine — for the nation which has the stones to explore the materials science & pharmacology mystery. Real, affordable, health care and contributions to genuine cancer R&D which can stand-alone or compliment nicely Allopathy (and, so far, India leads the way there!).

That’s about all I’ll warn to the skeptics. Just keep in mind that there is always something more to human life in this world than our material bodies and our being the sum of mere parts. History and good in the world never takes the side of those who arrogantly opposed anything which greatly aided and cured ailing human life. It never remembers well those who lied and conspired in hatred of the truth; for Justice does prevail in the end, in this world and the next. The people of the future — and in Eternity, especially — don’t even care to remember your name. Your life in this world becomes as trivial over time as it deserves to be. Nothing but forgotten dust in the wind is your way when your hearts are so darkened and your minds so cemented. To be on the wrong side of history is nothing at all to keep as a vanity, and you’re welcome to it all you like!

It’s really ashame to be a slave to one’s emotions rather than reason, though. Before allowing oneself to be enslaved like that, ask yourself:

“What do I fear most here? Why am I so threatened at the possibility that homeopathy may be real? Is it because I have invested too much in being a proud skeptic? Am I afraid to be humbled? Do I have personal insecurities which compel me to be a know-it-all? Have I lost touch with my earlier love of mystery and being humbled? Being amazed? What has so killed my soul caused by my own corruptions and the world’s tainting of me? If this thing makes me angry and jealous, then I fear it for some reason. What is that reason? How did it come to enslave and threaten me among my own surrender of Free Will? Why does it so offend my own VANITY?!! I want to believe in it deep down. I can feel it and hear the truths and sincerity they speak, but something just stirs my divided and burning soul. I have a compulsion to attack at it for reasons I can’t explain. It is as if my mind and actions are not really even my own, and so how did it get that way?!!”

Next:

“Hmmmm….perhaps there is something to what Dr. Quack said about ample time spent in the sin of Vanity leading to partial possession? I am defending Ego/ Power and Property issues here at the core of my resistance to homeopathy’s truth. In these sins I have perhaps invested too much and given myself over to temptation too long, and so I am now a slave of them to the point that my lies, hostility, arrogance, and resistance to Truth is a compulsion? Is he right? On this issue and on many others in life, have I become a compulsive liar to even myself while not really being so; for I see those lies as truth? Am I really that blind? I am not stupid or an idiot, but have I really flowed down that path among the course he outlined? And why should Truth be offensive to my soul? I act so arrogant, and yet, in my behavior, it is I who fears them. Why?”

Fear not, lost sheep. We here at the Church of Homeopathic Scientoquackology shall save your almost damned soul with our quack voodoo! Vade Retro Satana!! Nunquan Suade Mihi Vana!! Sunt Mala Que Libas. Ipse Venana Bibas!!

Take care and may you find the peace of Revelation and Reason someday! Attention to the truth really is one’s salvation, but first one has to have the humility to get there and the eyes to see. Skeptics are never the enemy of homeopathy; Just the stubborn, malicious, and foolish ones. Skeptics who value truth are very easy to convert whenever they feel like waking up, and their presence as the nemesis of our craft is what sharpens us for the present and future as the effective medical science and art we are.

– Doc Quack

I thank you for not reading anything I wrote in response and claiming “Your last response comes across as very emotional – precisely what we find frustrating when arguing with our woo-believing adversaries.”

Excuse me? I found my response to be focussing on the points he made, as you can tell from the quotes I focussed on. I made points against him and now the argument continues. It is quite telling that you did not read my post by saying”the onus is on you to now come up with a rebuttal”. I did – to the greatest extent I could as I had no access to any of the references. And further elucidated in my following points. What point is your comment making other than to miss entirely my claims against him?

to make it clear to you, here are some of the so-called “emotional” points I made – which for some reason you have not read or even spoken about against me other than calling me emotional. You see how annoying it is to just keep saying emotional, it leads no where. its just emotion. emotionally.

WHAT I SAID:
1. our reliance on science journals which we do read, which claim nothing for homeopathy – though they are investigating
2. putting the onus on us – then I went to the website, investigated and found only a list – I then quoted Randi to show that number is good enough. It must be repeatable, etc.
3. what meta-studies say
4. how we are genuinely interested in acquiring new information, thus attempting to keep track of information regarding homeopathy

those are the points i made against him. Please try reading it again. I’m not quite sure what you meant be emotional – my capital letters? I think you can do better than that.