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	<title>Comments on: 21st Century Tribalism</title>
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	<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/</link>
	<description>Science. Humanism. Atheism. Politics.</description>
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		<title>By: An interview with Dr. Terese Hart &#124; Edger</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-904</link>
		<dc:creator>An interview with Dr. Terese Hart &#124; Edger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 05:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-904</guid>
		<description>[...] Hart&#8217;s time in the Ituri Forst was spent with the Bambutis, among whom was our favourite - Kenge. A documentary available at Google Video, Hearts of Brightness, describes their time there and work [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hart&#8217;s time in the Ituri Forst was spent with the Bambutis, among whom was our favourite &#8211; Kenge. A documentary available at Google Video, Hearts of Brightness, describes their time there and work [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Abhishek Bhatnagar</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-671</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhishek Bhatnagar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 02:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-671</guid>
		<description>Barry, I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that a tribal lifestyle is more egalitarian than ours; it is well known that in their lives, the chances of being killed as a result of violence are greater than in ours by many magnitudes. All tribal societies practice any combinations of arranged marriage, wife-beating (not the same as misogyny), and general brutal behavior all around - that is not a surprise to anyone. I merely suggested that certain African tribes have been portrayed as being more egalitarian than others. 

And the Toba catastrophe theory (population down to 10,000 breeding pairs) you refer to is not as solid science as one might hope. I understand there is some evidence pertaining to it, but that might just as well be circumstantial.

I think taking down fascination with tribal societies to inevitable euthanasia is a little extreme, but maybe that&#039;s just me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry, I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that a tribal lifestyle is more egalitarian than ours; it is well known that in their lives, the chances of being killed as a result of violence are greater than in ours by many magnitudes. All tribal societies practice any combinations of arranged marriage, wife-beating (not the same as misogyny), and general brutal behavior all around &#8211; that is not a surprise to anyone. I merely suggested that certain African tribes have been portrayed as being more egalitarian than others. </p>
<p>And the Toba catastrophe theory (population down to 10,000 breeding pairs) you refer to is not as solid science as one might hope. I understand there is some evidence pertaining to it, but that might just as well be circumstantial.</p>
<p>I think taking down fascination with tribal societies to inevitable euthanasia is a little extreme, but maybe that&#8217;s just me!</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Greenstein</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Greenstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-648</guid>
		<description>Hmmm. This was actually my dominant political paradigm when I was younger.

If I may make a few strongly worded points of argument:

I would point out that egalitarianism in the context of hunter-gatherers typically means that every male member of a community has an equal opportunity to play dictator over anyone else. The basis for leadership in a primitive egalitarianism is actually the same as the basis of fascist leadership: charismatic authority (I am not calling anyone a fascist, this is merely a lesson in cross-cultural comparison). While the modern primitives and the romantics would undoubtedly argue, as did a certain Lord John Acton, that without absolute power (in the form of industrial nation-states or agricultural empires) we should have no fear of absolute corruption, I would counter that  we&#039;ve seen plenty of corruption, but has anyone ever truly wielded absolute power? Let me rephrase that question: &quot;Does God exist?&quot; Didn&#039;t think so. So there we have, no such thing as absolute power, so we really have no way of testing Lord John Acton&#039;s hypothesis, do we?

On the subject of the Yanomamo, I assume you are aware of their infamous penchant for misogyny, wife-beating, and other nasty forms of anti-woman brutality. As for cultural relativity (and feminism, for that matter), the unfortunate Yanomami women actually consider the scars inflicted by their brutal husbands to be signs of their male masters&#039; affection: the more a Yanomami man beats his wife, or slices her skin with his machete, the more he is said to value her like the object she is considered in Yanomamo culture. Perhaps we can tease out the signs of the Stockholm Syndrome?

Obviously this is not true for every primitive society, but statistically it&#039;s true for most of them. The !Kung practice arranged marriages. As for genital mutilation, previously brought up, don&#039;t get me started. The reason I went into anthropology in the first place to advanced the &quot;Modern Tribalist&quot; agenda, offering primitive community as the best possible model for peaceful and naturalistic human coexistence. The reason I eventually discarded this theory was because of my having gone into anthropology.

The &quot;primitive&quot; has always been subject to distorted romanticization by outsiders. Finally, what would it take to reduce the human footprint and allow us to start over? Arguably we&#039;re all alive today because 75,000 years ago climate disruption lead human ancestors to migrate, spreading diseases as they came into contact, at one point actually reducing the gene pool to about 10,000 breeding pairs. So are we all just supposed to wait for the next depopulation bomb? Because if you want everyone to live as hunter gatherers or horticulturalists off the land, you&#039;re gonna need a lot less people. And getting the human population to a more manageable and sustainable size- well that&#039;s going to take some major technocratic social engineering over a very long term, unless of course we&#039;re down with the aforementioned euthenasia. It&#039;s either that, or hope for one hell of an asteroid impact to remind the lucky(?) survivors of some much needed cosmic humility.

That&#039;s what my theory depended on: an apocalyptic and utopian vision of death and destruction. And I still tried to make it work. Eventually that naive idealism was eroded by the effects of my own cognitive dissonance. Barring a major depopulation event, I&#039;ll keep my technology, my progress, and my global community, thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm. This was actually my dominant political paradigm when I was younger.</p>
<p>If I may make a few strongly worded points of argument:</p>
<p>I would point out that egalitarianism in the context of hunter-gatherers typically means that every male member of a community has an equal opportunity to play dictator over anyone else. The basis for leadership in a primitive egalitarianism is actually the same as the basis of fascist leadership: charismatic authority (I am not calling anyone a fascist, this is merely a lesson in cross-cultural comparison). While the modern primitives and the romantics would undoubtedly argue, as did a certain Lord John Acton, that without absolute power (in the form of industrial nation-states or agricultural empires) we should have no fear of absolute corruption, I would counter that  we&#8217;ve seen plenty of corruption, but has anyone ever truly wielded absolute power? Let me rephrase that question: &#8220;Does God exist?&#8221; Didn&#8217;t think so. So there we have, no such thing as absolute power, so we really have no way of testing Lord John Acton&#8217;s hypothesis, do we?</p>
<p>On the subject of the Yanomamo, I assume you are aware of their infamous penchant for misogyny, wife-beating, and other nasty forms of anti-woman brutality. As for cultural relativity (and feminism, for that matter), the unfortunate Yanomami women actually consider the scars inflicted by their brutal husbands to be signs of their male masters&#8217; affection: the more a Yanomami man beats his wife, or slices her skin with his machete, the more he is said to value her like the object she is considered in Yanomamo culture. Perhaps we can tease out the signs of the Stockholm Syndrome?</p>
<p>Obviously this is not true for every primitive society, but statistically it&#8217;s true for most of them. The !Kung practice arranged marriages. As for genital mutilation, previously brought up, don&#8217;t get me started. The reason I went into anthropology in the first place to advanced the &#8220;Modern Tribalist&#8221; agenda, offering primitive community as the best possible model for peaceful and naturalistic human coexistence. The reason I eventually discarded this theory was because of my having gone into anthropology.</p>
<p>The &#8220;primitive&#8221; has always been subject to distorted romanticization by outsiders. Finally, what would it take to reduce the human footprint and allow us to start over? Arguably we&#8217;re all alive today because 75,000 years ago climate disruption lead human ancestors to migrate, spreading diseases as they came into contact, at one point actually reducing the gene pool to about 10,000 breeding pairs. So are we all just supposed to wait for the next depopulation bomb? Because if you want everyone to live as hunter gatherers or horticulturalists off the land, you&#8217;re gonna need a lot less people. And getting the human population to a more manageable and sustainable size- well that&#8217;s going to take some major technocratic social engineering over a very long term, unless of course we&#8217;re down with the aforementioned euthenasia. It&#8217;s either that, or hope for one hell of an asteroid impact to remind the lucky(?) survivors of some much needed cosmic humility.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what my theory depended on: an apocalyptic and utopian vision of death and destruction. And I still tried to make it work. Eventually that naive idealism was eroded by the effects of my own cognitive dissonance. Barring a major depopulation event, I&#8217;ll keep my technology, my progress, and my global community, thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: From the Frontlines of Conservation &#124; Edger</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-641</link>
		<dc:creator>From the Frontlines of Conservation &#124; Edger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-641</guid>
		<description>[...] one of my earlier posts, I had made a reference to Virunga National Park - a 7800 square kilometer reserve of the Congolese [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] one of my earlier posts, I had made a reference to Virunga National Park &#8211; a 7800 square kilometer reserve of the Congolese [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-305</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-305</guid>
		<description>Are we on complete cultural relativity now?  Can&#039;t we hold some standards - Universal Human Rights / dignity of all persons?  We can claim superiority over our ancestors, but still admit to not being the greatest culture we possibly could (since shit still happens).  I think &quot;looking at the issue completely objectively&quot; is utter BS.  It&#039;s not forcing a POV when you stand up for a child that doesn&#039;t have a choice in brutal torture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are we on complete cultural relativity now?  Can&#8217;t we hold some standards &#8211; Universal Human Rights / dignity of all persons?  We can claim superiority over our ancestors, but still admit to not being the greatest culture we possibly could (since shit still happens).  I think &#8220;looking at the issue completely objectively&#8221; is utter BS.  It&#8217;s not forcing a POV when you stand up for a child that doesn&#8217;t have a choice in brutal torture.</p>
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		<title>By: Abhishek Bhatnagar</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-283</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhishek Bhatnagar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-283</guid>
		<description>None of us like to see genital mutilation or stoning to death or several other such customs, but if you look at the issue completely objectively, it is not up to you or me to decide which cultures stay and which go. If we start making that decision, then we are essentially forcing our pov. 
Would you say the same about tribal cultures that kill and rape at much more brutal levels on a daily basis? All of our ancestors did the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None of us like to see genital mutilation or stoning to death or several other such customs, but if you look at the issue completely objectively, it is not up to you or me to decide which cultures stay and which go. If we start making that decision, then we are essentially forcing our pov.<br />
Would you say the same about tribal cultures that kill and rape at much more brutal levels on a daily basis? All of our ancestors did the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Rodrigo Neely</title>
		<link>http://factonista.org/2008/08/17/democracy-and-tribalism/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodrigo Neely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theedger.org/?p=384#comment-69</guid>
		<description>Do you think all cultures should be preserved? I don&#039;t, I would love to see female genital mutilation go completely extinct, and this is only one custom which I feel this way about. 

For that matter I find much of modern U.S. culture repugnant, like its anti-intellectualism. 

I definitely feel you as far as human rights issues are concerned, but I find the argument that cultures should be preserved for their own sakes naive at best, and dangerous at worst.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think all cultures should be preserved? I don&#8217;t, I would love to see female genital mutilation go completely extinct, and this is only one custom which I feel this way about. </p>
<p>For that matter I find much of modern U.S. culture repugnant, like its anti-intellectualism. </p>
<p>I definitely feel you as far as human rights issues are concerned, but I find the argument that cultures should be preserved for their own sakes naive at best, and dangerous at worst.</p>
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